Do you read street newspapers? (to FF)
Yes.
Do you attend cultural events? (to Z!)
Z!: As often as I can. I like classical music.
Did you know about each other before the collaboration with AWC?
Z!: Some years ago we published an article in our paper about an asylum seeker who built a model of the shelter where he was staying as part of a workshop for Framer Framed. We went there to look at the model, talk to the asylum seeker, and take some pictures. That day we were introduced to Framer Framed and we thought: "These are nice people doing good work!".
FF: As local Amsterdam residents, it's impossible to miss Z!’s presence on the streets. We recognize Z! for its extensive city distribution and active engagement with the homeless community. Additionally, we are neighbors in Amsterdam Oost, with the Z! distribution center situated just around the corner from Framer Framed.
Both Z! and Framer Framed engage with different communities and their cultural and material needs. What do you think is different about how you work with people?
Z! is part of the Regenboog, one of the big care organizations in Amsterdam. De Regenboog, with its 1100 volunteers, is a very social and warm organization where we feel really at home. It is important for us that our homeless vendors are treated individually, are recognized by the organization, and feel welcome. Cooperating is quite new for us. Street papers are normally as poor as church mice and cannot afford to cooperate, because it usually takes time, and time is money…
FF: At Framer Framed, the interaction between works of art and the audience creates a temporary world of meanings, creating encounters, exchange, discussion, and analysis. We collaborate with both cultural and societal organizations to research our exhibitions and organize extensive public programs, integrating our exhibitions into the social debate. We focus on cultural and educational programs for collective learning. Our spaces for learning through cultural programs address societal issues and empower individuals by collaborating with diverse local and international communities.
Social work, and cultural work are important to progress toward fair and just societies. Why do you think these two spheres seldomly look at each other and collaborate?
Z!: Many journalists are very distrustful. They keep their work and copyrights close to their chest. This makes collaboration difficult, though it can be very profitable. It seems to be the case that collaboration is always suspect while you need trust when collaborating.
Also, like with any craft, journalism is under attack from growing communication and financial departments. Many journalists feel beleaguered and basically want to be left alone.
FF: Cultural work addressing social issues faces challenges, such as practitioners lacking experience, and a top-down art economy that equates exposure with impact. These factors hinder its social promise. Social work, focused on direct support, often doesn't align with the abstract nature of cultural work, leading to a lack of collaboration. However, we believe that focusing on differences can sometimes hide common ground and prevent collaboration on shared issues. When it comes to refugees, homeless people, and those who have difficulty integrating into society, we can achieve much more by working together and finding a shared language
Why do you think your labor is necessary?
Z!: Selling our paper is, for many of our vendors, their only source of income. The euros they make from our paper is the difference between having little money and severe poverty.
FF: Our work at Framer Framed is necessary because we aim to bridge different disciplines and create new conditions for rethinking the role of art spaces. We intend to create spaces that are more than just exhibition venues – they are spaces for collective work and support, for sharing labor, resources, and expertise with communities. Labor is intrinsic to the operation of cultural spaces and shouldn't be overlooked.
What do you think is the most rewarding aspect of your labor?
Z!: We are, strictly speaking, not social workers, but we are active in the community with poor and often mentally ill vendors. Many of the Z! people feel safe with us, and when you have a mental illness that can make all the difference.
FF: One of the most rewarding aspects of our work is the ability to connect the dots and create relationships within our social ecosystem, thereby contributing to the larger community and cultural landscape. We also see the benefit of our work in providing space for marginalized stories and realities and supporting those who do not have an obvious position of power. By exposing these perspectives to wider audiences we destabilize the status quo.
What are the biggest challenges operating in Amsterdam and in the Netherlands at large?
Z!: The new right-wing politicians in government fill me with dread and anxiety. What would happen to the poor and confused if fascists rule? We will have to fight terror, I’m afraid.
FF: The Netherlands is now in a moment of political change. We don't yet know what its outcome will be, but we anticipate that many of the people and groups we work with are going to face challenges. Planned policies could have significant consequences, particularly for refugees, migrants, and international cooperation. This concerns us greatly. The cultural sector in the Netherlands can still rely on subsidies from national and local governments, but this is increasingly under threat. Framer Framed is grateful for the support it has received over the years, but by no means can all organizations doing relevant work count on funding.
What did you learn from this collaboration so far and will you apply it to further collaborations?
Z!: I learned (again) that language is not a big barrier to collaboration. I think you have to be friendly and the love and understanding you need will follow. From personal experience, I can say that making contact sometimes seems very hard, but If you take the first step, the rest will follow. Always try to have a little fun when you are working!
FF: In this collaboration, Framer Framed had the opportunity to operate as the bridge between Z! and Arts of the Working Class, taking up the challenging role of combining social and cultural workers. Through this process we realized potential shortcomings in the way that the cultural sector interacts with society, reevaluating the importance of a vernacular in the cultural sector. This collaboration has given us tools and knowledge that strengthen our ability to initiate future collaborations with social workers.
Can you share an example of your work in which you contributed to a world that is not about competition?
Z!: Our illustrator for our back page, Olivier, who has serious mental problems, is always extremely modest, especially when we compliment our ‘present-day Van Gogh’ with another beautiful painting. He is inclined to compete and is happy when he is able to paint. Nothing more, nothing less. Whenever I lose myself in arguments or discussions I ask myself, what would Olivier do in this situation? And, often, my sense of competition quickly ebbs away.
FF: Framer Framed is committed to a public space in the Molenwijk where we aim to support communities and invite artists to create new work with the neighborhood. What we do there is not in view of the larger public but focuses primarily on contributing to the collectivity and cultural infrastructure in the neighborhood.
Our projects, such as the Open Atelier, and partnerships with collectives including We Sell Reality, embody a collective-oriented philosophy. We Sell Reality, founded by refugees, critiques the paradox of border policies, while the Open Atelier brings together diverse creative individuals with migration backgrounds. Initially a response to budget cuts in mental health care, the Open Atelier participants organize weekly workshops and showcase their work in an annual exhibition. In these and other collaborations, Framer Framed emphasizes the power of collaboration and learning from each other rather than competition
What should the readers of Z! and AWC take from this collaboration?
FF: We would like to advocate for creating unexpected collaborations. Leading up to the two editions, we discussed the need to bridge gaps – not just language barriers, but also the divide between theoretical and practical approaches, as well as between artistic-cultural and social perspectives.
We hope the readers of Z! and AWC can see this collaboration as a symbol of solidarity across geographical and social borders, where ideas, culture, and resources are exchanged.
Z!: I hope our readers will be surprised and a little proud that the humble Z! has taken on this challenge of collaborating with arty types - and from abroad, no less! I feel the solidarity with my concolleagues from Berlin, and I hope our paper sells well. Often I think, when reading ‘arty’ articles: ‘what the hell are these people thinking?’ But, at the same time, I think: ‘It must be nice to be an artist and do whatever you like’. Then the arty stuff makes me envious of the artists’ freedom and I feel immediately what art can bring to the world.
\\
